Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

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Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Niels on Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:33 pm

In her introduction,
http://truth-saves.forumotion.com/your-religious-views-f6/hi-everyone-t26.htm :

courtney wrote:I [...] do not believe in the trinity, do not go to church on Sundays, I do not believe in "going to heaven or hell", and do not believe in the rapture. None of these are biblical.
Aren't they? I'm pretty sure Jesus talks about heaven, as in "no rich man shall ever enter heaven". Also hell, as "eternal damnation" or something. I wouldn't know where to find the trinity, but the rapture is in revelations and should be easy to find.

@Courtney: You've just pulled the worst trick that can be pulled on any atheist. You made me reach for my bible!

More later...
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Niels on Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:56 pm

The existence of heaven:
Matthew 19:23-24 wrote:
(New International Version)
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 18:1-4 wrote:
(New International Version)
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, "heaven" is interchangeable with "the kingdom of God", and it seems to be all over the New Testament.

The existence of hell:
An online search for "hell" gives more than enough appropriate passages:

# Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

# Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

# Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

# Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I'll be back on the rapture - if I can get my hands on enough grass to smoke my way through revelations. Meanwhile, Courtney, where did I go wrong in thinking that Heaven and Hell do appear in the Bible?
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  courtney on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:34 am

Niels wrote:In her introduction,
http://truth-saves.forumotion.com/your-religious-views-f6/hi-everyone-t26.htm :

courtney wrote:I [...] do not believe in the trinity, do not go to church on Sundays, I do not believe in "going to heaven or hell", and do not believe in the rapture. None of these are biblical.
Aren't they? I'm pretty sure Jesus talks about heaven, as in "no rich man shall ever enter heaven". Also hell, as "eternal damnation" or something. I wouldn't know where to find the trinity, but the rapture is in revelations and should be easy to find.

@Courtney: You've just pulled the worst trick that can be pulled on any atheist. You made me reach for my bible!

More later...
Twisted Evil While it is true that Christ talks about heaven, nowhere is it mentioned as a reward, or that people go there when they die. Or going to burn in hell for eternity as a punishment. The term hell is nothing more than the grave. The reward is eternal life, the punishment is eternal death, with no hope of another resurrection.
You won't find the trinity, because is isn't in the bible. The "rapture", as people believe, isn't going to happen. Christ isn't going to "call His own" suddenly, millions around the world aren't going to simply vanish into thin air, with the tribulation starting afterward. Instead we go through the tribulation first, with His (very few) true followers going to an actual place of safety. Then, after the tribulation is over, when man has just about annihilated himself off the earth, Christ will return. It is at this point that His people who are still alive will be caught up with Him. This will be after His people who have died are resurrected to be with Him.
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  courtney on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:39 am

Niels wrote:The existence of heaven:
Matthew 19:23-24 wrote:
(New International Version)
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matthew 18:1-4 wrote:
(New International Version)
1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently, "heaven" is interchangeable with "the kingdom of God", and it seems to be all over the New Testament.

The existence of hell:
An online search for "hell" gives more than enough appropriate passages:

# Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

# Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

# Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

# Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

I'll be back on the rapture - if I can get my hands on enough grass to smoke my way through revelations. Meanwhile, Courtney, where did I go wrong in thinking that Heaven and Hell do appear in the Bible?
The kingdom of heaven isn't heaven itself, and shouldn't be interchangeable. Instead, it should be interchangeable with the Kingdom of God. The kingdom is going to be God's government, rather than man's, which will be set up here on earth at Christ's return. As far as hell, try replacing it with the word "grave". It makes alot more sense, since that is all that it really is.
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Niels on Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:47 am

courtney wrote:While it is true that Christ talks about heaven, nowhere is it mentioned as a reward, or that people go there when they die.
If they do not enter the Kingdom of Heaven when they die, then when do they? Jesus clearly talks about what one should do to enter the kingdom of heaven. How is heaven not a reward for doing those things?

courtney wrote:Or going to burn in hell for eternity as a punishment. The term hell is nothing more than the grave.
Luke disagrees with you. He describes a rich man in hell, not in oblivion, but clearly conscious and in agony:

Luke 16:22-24 wrote:22The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
@Courtney: To deny hell as biblical, you have to distort the text beyond any sane interpretation.

courtney wrote:You won't find the trinity, because is isn't in the bible.
Not literally perhaps - but if not the trinity, then what is Matthew talking about?

Matthew 28:19 wrote:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

courtney wrote:The "rapture", as people believe, isn't going to happen. Christ isn't going to "call His own" suddenly, millions around the world aren't going to simply vanish into thin air, with the tribulation starting afterward. Instead we go through the tribulation first, with His (very few) true followers going to an actual place of safety.
What place would that be? Ehhh... The kingdom of heaven, perhaps?
courtney wrote:Then, after the tribulation is over, when man has just about annihilated himself off the earth, Christ will return. It is at this point that His people who are still alive will be caught up with Him. This will be after His people who have died are resurrected to be with Him.
If so, then who are the 24 elders sitting around the throne of God, oohing and aahing him? Were they never human, or were they resurrected early to stroke Gods ego?
Then again, heaven seems to be filled with many-eyed monsters, bleeding lambs and angels. Perhaps "elders" are yet another type of heavenly creature, splashing blood all around the place or carrying bowls with disaster. Or is falling down before their master their only craft?
I agree that your view doesn't contradict revelations. Then again, revelations is such a mess of past, present and future, reality and nightmare, square earths the size of Israel and rolled up heavens, that you can read anything in it, if you try hard enough.
But Courtney: What makes your interpretation more valid then any other?
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  courtney on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:53 pm

To answer your questions one by one:
Speaking of the kingdom of heaven: Notice how it says the kingdom OF heaven, not the kingdom IN heaven. As stated previously, this kingdom will be God's government taking over rulership of earth. Man's governments will be no more. The reward will be rulership with Christ over those on earth. Man will not be in heaven rolling about in the clouds and playing harps.
2) About Lazarus and the rich man:
This was nothing more than a parable. Christ did not teach without using parables. (Mark 4:33-34) But this parable does not teach that people go to heaven or hell when they die. Both men die. Most conclude that Lazarus goes to heaven, the rich man to hell. But there is nothing that states this. Lazaurs arrives at "Abraham's bosom", with no mention of when this occurs. The rich man is buried. Plain and simple.
Lazarus's presence at Abraham's bosom depicts a close relationship. So a special relationship is shown between Abraham and Lazarus, with no reference to either time or place. Abraham is not in heaven, he is dead. (John 8:52-53) He is not waiting in heaven for people to come and recline on his bosom. The meek inherit the earth when Christ returns. Abraham and Lazarus will be resurrecte into the kingdom of god at Christ's return. That is the meaning of the phrase.
The rich man is obviously in hell. However, the word translated as hell here is "hades". This makes sense because hades is the grave, and the verse says the rich man was buried. He was also in "torment". The Greek word translated torment is "basanos". It means "a touchstone, having to do with touching pure gold, against the particular stone, to test it's purity and validity,... to be under a severe trial, torture". The rich man was, in fact, mentally tortured and in a severe trial. He was facing the lake of fire! He had missed out on salvation and could clearly see Abraham and Lazarus in the kingdom of God.
Read the verses carefully. The rich man requests that Lazarus cool his tongue with a tiny amount of water, on the tip of his finger. If you were roasting in a condtion involving walls of fire all around you, would you merely ask for a few drops of water to cool your tongue? I'm running out of time, I'll be back to continue this later.
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Niels on Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:27 pm

courtney wrote:The reward will be rulership with Christ over those on earth.
So, there is a reward for good behavior, then? I thought you were denying the reward-concept...
Man will not be in heaven rolling about in the clouds and playing harps.
No one here suggested that heaven looked like that. We should use a broader definition of "heaven": I opt for "a place of happiness where you go after you die". We don't know where that place is; we do know that it's not here and not now. Agreed?

About heaven:
All through Matthew, there are indications of some place where God resides, and a place where people go to when they obey the commandments. It's not clear that they are the same place; neither is it clear that that place is here on earth. As far as I see, all options are hinted at least once. Jesus is a weasel, never making any solid statement.
Anyway: It doesn't really matter where or when heaven is - it is not here and not now. It is either somewhere else or somewhen else, and good people go there after they die. Defined like that, heaven is in the bible.

About hell: I'm sorry to say this, Courtney, but you are rambling. You blatantly contradict yourself:

courtney wrote:The rich man is buried. Plain and simple.
That seems consistent with your view that bad people simply cease to exist. Then you write:
The rich man was, in fact, mentally tortured and in a severe trial. He was facing the lake of fire!
So, he was mentally tortures after his death. What more definition of hell do you want? Is it only "hell" if it has literal sulfur fires and little horned demons with 3-toothed forks?
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  courtney on Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:44 pm

To put it plain and simple, since you missed the last line that said I would be back to finish, the "bad people" will be thrown in the lake of fire, burn up and be gone forever. There will be no eternal torture or burning forever in hell.
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Clint on Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:17 am

I'll just jump in. Re: the Trinity spans both testaments, so you need to have read both to see it. In the OT, we have verse after verse of God decreeing how he's the only saviour, how he's the only God, the only Lord, etc. Desperate to drive that one home! Then in the NT we have sayings such as "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." - John 1:1. Which then continues into stating that Jesus is the word, Jesus is the all mighty God, the heavenly father, the saviour in several different passages. In which in the OT is all ascribed to the one and only God Yahweh. Hence the trinity, which is definitely in there. Yet at the same time there are many, many other verses you can extract that make a clear distinction between the two identities. Once again - it leaves it open for cherry picking.

As for heaven and hell not being in the bible - that's simply wrong. There's constant references to both of them. Not so much in the OT of course, but the NT. Whether your idea of heaven is some alternate reality where you get zapped after you die, or some other place where you bath in Gods glory, or whether you believe in heaven on earth. What ever version you believe, heaven is clearly in the bible, and time and time again its described as a reward for those of us which follow Gods laws, or accept Jesus Christ as their lord and saviour (what ever your particular belief is). In Matthew 12:40 we are told that just as Jonas spent three days in a whale’s belly, Jesus when he spends three nights in hell will be “in the heart of the earth.” Ephesians 4:9 describes Jesus’ time in hell as being a descent in to the “lower parts of the earth.” Several verses like Isaiah 14:15 describe Hell as being at the bottom of a pit. and Numbers 16:32-33 makes it crystal clear that the Bible truly states Hell is supposedly in the center of the Earth. Numbers gives accounts of people falling into hell alive and mentions that “the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them” and that they fell down “into the pit, and the earth closed upon them.”

So what ever your interpretation of heaven and hell may be. They are clearly in the bible. It's mentioned many times, along with instructions of 'whats' and 'hows' of what someone might do to arrive at these places. It also gives brief descriptions, incitations and glimpses of what each of these places are like. (How else is he going to lure people).

...They are biblical.
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Niels on Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:50 am

@Clint: Thanks for saving me the trouble of going through the Old Testament. Between us, we've gathered enough quotes to make our point: That heaven, hell, the trinity and the reward-system are most certainly biblical.

I have the impression that Courtney agrees with us on most, if not all, points. Her view of heaven and hell differs only marginally from the view of other Christians. For Christians these differences are big enough to wage war over (as has been done repeatedly) but to us atheists it's they're the same: Interpretations of a fairy tale.

We have a word for people that try to find meaning in that specific fairy tale: We call them Christians, and that's what Courtney is.
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Heaven and Hell

Post  lawandorder on Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:10 pm

Hell was the name of a small city. In hell, there were dumps that burned from the sacrificed animals. That is why the wormword lives.

The bible states that the dead know nothing. Their thoughts cease. The wages of sin is death. No eternal punishment here. Just death. No thoughts, non existent. God never told Adam and Eve they would burn in an eternal torment. He told them they would die.

The trinity is a manmade concept. It is not scriptural in any way. There is one God, one Son, and one Spirit. I don't even want to get into this concept at this time. The rapture is also a manmade concept, not even mentioned in the bible.

In Matthew, Jesus told his disciples that some of them standing there with him, that generation, would not pass away or see death before he returned. He says nothing about 2000 or so years in the future. He spoke to that generation, to those disciples!! Some of them standing next to him would see his return!!! Got it? He didn't say you will see my transfiguration, you will see my return!

I am an agnostic. I was raised a fundamentalist christian. After years of frustration and lots of questions, I started researching. While I do believe in a creator, everything else is up for grabs for me. I believe that Jesus was a prophet. Son of God? How about son of Mary and Joseph? Let's be intelligent and realistic here. Mary was a young woman. She was engaged to Joseph. She got pregnant. She had to come up with a story so she and Joseph would not be stoned to death.

Ok, I'm rambling. I've said too much already. More later.

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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Niels on Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:20 pm

lawandorder wrote:Hell was the name of a small city. In hell, there were dumps that burned from the sacrificed animals. That is why the wormword lives.
Reference please?

The bible states that the dead know nothing. Their thoughts cease. The wages of sin is death. No eternal punishment here. Just death. No thoughts, non existent.
If you've read through this thread, you'd have found bible quotes contradicting your claim. Did you read the thread, or just the title?

God never told Adam and Eve they would burn in an eternal torment. He told them they would die.
That something is not in Genesis, doesn't mean it's not in the Bible.

The trinity is a manmade concept. It is not scriptural in any way. There is one God, one Son, and one Spirit. I don't even want to get into this concept at this time.
No atheist will deny that the trinity is a man made concept. The bible is a man made concept. Still: God+Son+Spirit=3, which is all that's needed to talk about a trinity.

The rapture is also a manmade concept, not even mentioned in the bible.
Man made concept: Yes. Not mentioned in the bible: Read this thread from the top, please. We've covered this.

In Matthew, Jesus told his disciples that some of them standing there with him, that generation, would not pass away or see death before he returned. He says nothing about 2000 or so years in the future. He spoke to that generation, to those disciples!! Some of them standing next to him would see his return!!! Got it? He didn't say you will see my transfiguration, you will see my return!
Read revelations.

I am an agnostic. I was raised a fundamentalist christian. After years of frustration and lots of questions, I started researching. While I do believe in a creator, everything else is up for grabs for me. I believe that Jesus was a prophet. Son of God? How about son of Mary and Joseph? Let's be intelligent and realistic here. Mary was a young woman. She was engaged to Joseph. She got pregnant. She had to come up with a story so she and Joseph would not be stoned to death.
If you want to be "intelligent" and "realistic", then don't treat the bible like it were an account of history or the word of any god. It's a fairy tale.

Ok, I'm rambling. I've said too much already. More later.
Welcome to the forum, L&O.
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Re: Are heaven, hell and trinity in the bible?

Post  Clint on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:36 am

Niels pretty much summed up what I was going to say :-) - Ta! Note to readers: When reading Revelations, it probably will help to have a few drinks before hand as that book is seriously tripped out! ...Thomas Jefferson puts it beautiful; "...merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

& to rehash something he has also mentioned, when biblical concepts are in dispute, it's always helpful to give the biblical passage (even if its just "rev 13:1-10") - can only help your cause :-)

@lawandorder
The bible states that the dead know nothing. Their thoughts cease. The wages of sin is death. No eternal punishment here. Just death. No thoughts, non existent.
This is just one example where they get it from. In Matthew 25:41-46 it says 41 "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ...then in 46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." There are lots of other references to hell, but for some, you can re-read this thread.

Along with the Rapture, they get it from such verses:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up [Greek word is "harpazo" meaning to "seize"] together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
&
Matthew 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

Again - due to the lack of coherency and plausibility in the bible, i'd just take such verses as nonsensical rants of a loony (but then again, I use my brain). But each and every Christian sect will interpret and cherry pick all of these passages to take what appeals to them. At least the old testament was more to the point and didn't dance around so much with what it said. I don't think anyone would argue Heaven isn't in the bible. A lot of the 'Hell' references are riddled up in symbolic poetry, but is definitely there. And in my opinion, you can draw fuzzy conclusions either way on the 'trinity' and 'rapture' as these concepts are coated in babble and incoherency.
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