Akuma9 - Atheist

Hey everyone. Found this site through some of my friends on Twitter.

Well I am a 30 year old Atheist. I was originally raised Baptist Christian, but started losing my faith around 15. By 21 I had come to the conclusion if God was real and love and all power as claimed by the religions then he would not have any problem removing all the ills we as humans face. I didn't start embracing my atheism until just recently. I was always a math oriented person, and while I do not believe in any gods, I still believe in the mathematical possibly that a being, who I will refer to as god, may exist outside of this universe - but I can guarantee it is not Yahweh, the god of the Bible.

I am also known as FraggedMind on twitter, YouTube, and RDF.

Nice to meet all who post here, now and in the future.

Welcome to the website fellow 30 year old atheist. I would like to say that in addition to Yahweh not bothering to remove all the ills we face, him being the creator of everything means he also created the ills. Too many people ask why does a loving god allow suffering but I think a better question is why did a loving god invent suffering?

I would be interested though in why you think there is a mathematical possibility that a god being exists especially since consciousness was not formed until more than 10 billion years after the birth of our universe and not to mention that consciousness rely on a particular physical pattern of neurons or neuron like alternatives. Is your belief based strictly on a mathematical view point or are you including factors to your probabilities such as a knowledge of evolutionary cognitive science?

- Joe

Admin wrote:I would be interested though in why you think there is a mathematical possibility that a god being exists[...]

If I may jump in...
In some scientific theories, there are things outside or before our universe. Multiverses and bubbleverses are taken quite seriously.
If one of those theories is true, then some other universes might contain the right physics to support life, like ours does. Since our universe might well contain millions of civilizations, it's not unlikely that another universe does too.

To call such an individual a "god" though, I would like a definition of a god. Should he have created life? Should have created an afterlife?

Niels wrote:

Admin wrote:I would be interested though in why you think there is a mathematical possibility that a god being exists[...]

If I may jump in...
In some scientific theories, there are things outside or before our universe. Multiverses and bubbleverses are taken quite seriously.
If one of those theories is true, then some other universes might contain the right physics to support life, like ours does. Since our universe might well contain millions of civilizations, it's not unlikely that another universe does too.

To call such an individual a "god" though, I would like a definition of a god. Should he have created life? Should have created an afterlife?

I only use the term god as I have no other words for it/them/him/her. I use this term as this being may or may not have superior abilities compared to our own, may or may not have superior intellect to our own, and may or may not have created our universe. It is the unanswered, and possibly unknowable, questions that that drive me to use the term "god."

Is this being worth worship? ...no. Is it a personal god? ...again no. It is just a term I use to suggest that there is a possible being(s) that may or may not have influenced our universe before the Big Bang, and may exist outside of our universe without making it complicated (overly complicated sometimes).

Niels has hit a homerun with his post and in understanding what I was referencing in my post.

Akuma9 wrote:Niels has hit a homerun with his post and in understanding what I was referencing in my post.

Thanks!

We seem to agree on the possibility of other lifeforms - but I would never call them "god". In a perfect world, you could use "god" with your definition, and everybody would understand. In our non-perfect world however, the word "god" leads to misunderstandings. Any Christian worth his salvation would reply "So you do believe in God", and assume that you'd believe in the whole virgin-birth/commandments/heaven deal. We have to chose our words with care, not to be willfully misunderstood or misquoted. We'd better refer to beings from other universes as "aliens".

Hey,

My name is Ashley and I found this website via tumblr. I work at a church and have been a Christian since I was about 9 years old. I was just curious as to the way that those who don't believe in God (Yahweh) think about things like creation and life and life after death. I was emailing a guy from this site who helps run it, but he won't email me back. I actually thinks it's kinda funny. I'm very opened minded. Anything you say or believe will not offend. I'm not that way. I saw that you guys were talking about other life form possibilites and and wether or not we were created by such beings and I was wondering what someone thought about anit-matter?

Sawatsky wrote:Hey,

My name is Ashley and I found this website via tumblr.

Welcome.

I work at a church and have been a Christian since I was about 9 years old. I was just curious as to the way that those who don't believe in God (Yahweh) think about things like creation and life and life after death.

Creation as in the 6 days Yahweh did it answer we atheists always hear? It's a Myth. Life after death? No evidence for such nonsense.

I was emailing a guy from this site who helps run it, but he won't email me back. I actually thinks it's kinda funny. I'm very opened minded. Anything you say or believe will not offend. I'm not that way. I saw that you guys were talking about other life form possibilites and and wether or not we were created by such beings and I was wondering what someone thought about anit-matter?

While the possibilities of life outside of our own universe is only a mathematical one (I recommend reading "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku), I don't believe there is until there is evidence, testable and repeatable, for such things. I do not believe we were created by anything, but are here as a result of the inevitable random possibilities that exists in this universe. In fact just recently there has been a discovery of an Earth like planet that may possibly contain life much like our own in another planetary system (I just can't remember if it was in our own galaxy or another galaxy, but it was found by the ESA projects. There is more on this on the YouTube channel Best0fScience)

The only thing I can assure you of by the evidence collected by scientists, historians, archeologists, geologists, and with projects like the mapping of the Human and Chimpanzee Genomes, DNA, and others, that the myth of Yahweh is an impossibility.

Hello Ashley,

Since your post has little connection to the other posts in this thread, you probably should have started a new thread. It would help greatly in keeping topics separate, giving you a better chance of receiving meaningful answers to any questions you might have.

Sawatsky wrote:I was just curious as to the way that those who don't believe in God (Yahweh) think about things like creation and life and life after death.

Speaking for myself, I think about creation and life after death as little as possible. These notions are just too ludicrous to take seriously. The only reason I ever think about them, is because Christians not only believe in them, but expect me to live my life as if those notions were true. As ludicrous as these notions are; I have to defend myself against them.

I was wondering what someone thought about anit-matter?

Although I'm considered to be "extremely intelligent" (member of Mensa) and generally very interested in science, the concepts of antimatter, dark matter, dark energy, quantum physics and string theory are beyond my mental capacity.
I know just one thing about all of them: They are not an argument for the existence of Yahweh, heaven or hell. Sorry.

Mensa? Wow. I'm impressed.
I was thinking about how science and God can be linked together. I don't think that they have to work against each other at all. i have heard a lot of people say that they didn't believe in God because the whole theory of "creating something for nothing" and that it was impossible. And I'm sure that you know that anti-matter has to be handled a certain way that and to create something it needs to be lead. Why wouldn't someone think that the mold in which our world was created had something higher leading it?

but once more out of curiousity, why don't you think about the afterlife?

Sawatsky wrote:
I was thinking about how science and God can be linked together. I don't think that they have to work against each other at all. i have heard a lot of people say that they didn't believe in God because the whole theory of "creating something for nothing" and that it was impossible.

Before discussing the existence of God, we should know which God you are talking about. You say you're a Christian, but that doesn't really narrow it down. We need to know:
- Did your God create the universe, and if so, did he do it 6000 or 4 billion years ago?
- Did God create humans as-is, or did he "guide" the evolutionary process?
- Did your God create dinosaurs, or did he create only fossils of them?
- Is the story of Adam and Eve a parable, or a true story?
If you answer those questions, I can explain why your God doesn't exist. Proving that no God exists is impossible.

And I'm sure that you know that anti-matter has to be handled a certain way that and to create something it needs to be lead. Why wouldn't someone think that the mold in which our world was created had something higher leading it?

Why would we discuss something that we both don't understand?

but once more out of curiousity, why don't you think about the afterlife?

What part of a human would survive death? You probably call it our "soul", but what is a soul? I have an aunt that is dementing in her old age. She has no reason left, no memory, and barely a consciousness. If her soul is immortal, then where is it now? It's certainly not here.
Since our minds are so easily unhinged by drugs, brain damage and old age, I hardly think such a fragile thing could survive death.

And that's just one of my reasons to discard the afterlife as a fairy tale.

I believe that my God did create the universe, but I don't think that he created it 6 thousand years ago. In Genisis 1:1-2 it says, "In the beinning God created the heavens and the Earth. But now the Earth was formless and void." If you look it up in the original Hebrew the "but now" has a better translation which is "had become". Why would God not create other things before us?

I believe that he formed humans (Adam & Eve), but that a certain kind of evolution does occur. I don't think that we deleoped from monkies, but that animals do change over time.

I believe that he did create dinosuars.

I believe that my God did create Adam and Eve. And that he also create other humans as well. He said the Adam and Eve were His first, not His only.


I don't think that the soul is in our mind. It's a hard concept to try to explain the soul. I don't think humans in this state can really know what our soul is. It's something we will have to wait on. I think that's why thinking about it is so interesting. We can't really know. But I feel inside of me that this life isn't it, that there is more after this. Then again, it's hard to explain a feeling to someone else. haha.

Thanks for narrowing your God down, Sawatsky. I've been a member of quite a few atheist boards and debated many a Christian, but hardly any of them dared to be clear about their actual beliefs. You even dare to doubt, which is even rarer.

Now, on to your God:

I believe that my God did create the universe, but I don't think that he created it 6 thousand years ago.

Let's take the scientific estimate of 4 billion years. Let's also take their word on the size of the universe (at least 93 billion lightyears) and its other parameters: At least 100 billion galaxies, each containing a few billions of stars.
As easy as those numbers are to read and type; they are staggering. the human mind can not comprehend such numbers, and neither can we comprehend our own smallness compared to it.
To assume that some creature created such an enormous place, which such abundances of matter and power - why would he be interested in our personal lives? I consider it highly unlikely. I do not think we're that special, except to ourselves.

I believe that my God did create Adam and Eve. And that he also create other humans as well. He said the Adam and Eve were His first, not His only.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that we did evolve from apes - indeed still are apes, according to any scientific standard. We have fossils telling almost the complete story; we can trace our history through our DNA; under a microscope our cells are indistinguishable from those of chimpansees; we have exactly the same number of bones; we reproduce in the same way. All scientific evidence says we are apes and descended from apes.
You said that science and religion do not contradict - but here they certainly do.
I follow the scientific evidence, which rules out a creator of humanity.

I don't think that the soul is in our mind. It's a hard concept to try to explain the soul. I don't think humans in this state can really know what our soul is. It's something we will have to wait on.

That's an interesting viewpoint. In the extreme, it could be that our soul only comes to life after we die. If so, then our souls would have no connection to our living selves. If there is no connection between me and my soul, then why should I care about what it does or where it goes after I'm dead?
That's the extreme, and I'm sure that that's not what you believe. You believe there is some connection between your person now and your person after death - but what connection?
As a Christian, you dedicate your life to your immortal soul. Without knowing anything about it, how can you know that your soul is worth all that effort? How do you know that your soul can suffer in hell or be happy in heaven, when you don't know that a soul can suffer or chill at all?

Thank you. You're very nice and well informed. I've debated with quite a few Atheist and they just yell or tell me how stupid I am. You can't get anywhere in a debate like that. haha.


.[/quote]
Let's take the scientific estimate of 4 billion years. Let's also take their word on the size of the universe (at least 93 billion lightyears) and its other parameters: At least 100 billion galaxies, each containing a few billions of stars.
As easy as those numbers are to read and type; they are staggering. the human mind can not comprehend such numbers, and neither can we comprehend our own smallness compared to it.
To assume that some creature created such an enormous place, which such abundances of matter and power - why would he be interested in our personal lives? I consider it highly unlikely. I do not think we're that special, except to ourselves.

I think the thing that I like the best about my God is that I don't entirely understand what He does or did. This universe is complex, human bodies are complex, and I don't serve a God that can be conatined. I know it's going to sound really corny or whatever, but I truly feel loved by God. And it's not because someone told me that I was, or because I read that He loves me, but because I can feel it. When I look up at the night's sky I can't bring myself to think that this was someone beautiful accident.


There is an enormous amount of evidence that we did evolve from apes - indeed still are apes, according to any scientific standard. We have fossils telling almost the complete story; we can trace our history through our DNA; under a microscope our cells are indistinguishable from those of chimpansees; we have exactly the same number of bones; we reproduce in the same way. All scientific evidence says we are apes and descended from apes.


Have you ever heard of Ardi? It's a recently discoverd humanoid that is older that any human skelton structure we have ever found and it walk upright. They are saying that this is showing that we didn't evolve from apes. That we walked on 2 legs straight from the start. And this isn't Christian science talking, these are legit people just sorting out the facts.




As a Christian, you dedicate your life to your immortal soul. Without knowing anything about it, how can you know that your soul is worth all that effort? How do you know that your soul can suffer in hell or be happy in heaven, when you don't know that a soul can suffer or chill at all?[/quote]

Once again, not trying to sound so corny, but I can just feel it. I think that humans have a bit in intuition and you can feel when something bad is going to happen and I think that the same rests in our "souls", whatever they may be. But I think that it's not until we die that we become aware through our souls.

But on a more personal note: What was the moment, if there was a moment, that you stopped believing in God? (My God or any other for that matter)

haha. I totally messed my quote thing up somehow. I apologize.

Sawatsky wrote:Thank you. You're very nice and well informed. I've debated with quite a few Atheist and they just yell or tell me how stupid I am. You can't get anywhere in a debate like that. haha.

Yes: We'll get along fine. :-)

(About the quoting: Before you "send" a post, you should use the "preview" to check your quoting. Even after sending, you can use the "edit" to fix any errors. I use them all the time.)

I think the thing that I like the best about my God is that I don't entirely understand what He does or did. This universe is complex, human bodies are complex, and I don't serve a God that can be conatined. I know it's going to sound really corny or whatever, but I truly feel loved by God.

If so, then perhaps you shouldn't call yourself a Christian. Being Christian is a package-deal: You should accept the whole creation/virgin birth/commandments/heaven/hell package. I don't know what you should call yourself instead though.

My beef is not with your kind of religion, or only with you calling yourself a Christian. Your beliefs won't harm anyone.
The Christian belief on the other hand has harmed and killed millions. Inquisition, KKK, alter boys, pope-against-condoms, to name just a few horrors that might not have happened without religion. Even if I believed in God, I would not want to be associated with the horrors of established religion. I would never call myself either Christian, Moslim or Jew. I could not worship their God: It's a monster.

And it's not because someone told me that I was, or because I read that He loves me, but because I can feel it. When I look up at the night's sky I can't bring myself to think that this was someone beautiful accident.

Then again: Some people feel that Santa Claus exists, or the tooth fairy, or aliens. Some feel that the earth is just 6000 years old. Apparently our feelings are not that reliable...
You take your own feelings over the findings of science. That's fine, as long as you acknowledge it.
(And by the way: It is possible to enjoy the night sky without believing it was created. ;-) )

Have you ever heard of Ardi? It's a recently discoverd humanoid that is older that any human skelton structure we have ever found and it walk upright. They are saying that this is showing that we didn't evolve from apes. That we walked on 2 legs straight from the start. And this isn't Christian science talking, these are legit people just sorting out the facts.

I had to look it up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardi

Wikipedia wrote:Researchers infer from the form of Ardi's pelvis and limbs and the presence of her opposable big toe that she was a facultative biped: bipedal when moving on the ground, but quadrupedal when moving about in tree branches. Ardi had a more primitive walking ability than later hominids, and could not walk or run for long distances. The teeth suggest omnivory, and are more generalized than those of modern apes.

(In serious debates, Wikipedia is not a reliable source of facts. I hope it will do for now.)
Anyway: Aldi sheds light on what the ancestor of both chimps and humans could have looked like. No one is saying it looked exactly like a chimp, and no one says it looked human. All we know, is that both chimps and humans descended from it. Aldi does in no way conflict with that theory.

Once again, not trying to sound so corny, but I can just feel it. I think that humans have a bit in intuition and you can feel when something bad is going to happen ...

Actually, we can't. Perhaps you should check out the James Randi foundation at www.randi.org . James Randi has a 1 million dollar reward for a demonstration of any paranormal ability whatsoever. Feeling bad events beforehand would certainly qualify, yet no one has been able to claim the price.

... and I think that the same rests in our "souls", whatever they may be.

What you think rest in our souls does not exist, as James Randi's reward shows...

But I think that it's not until we die that we become aware through our souls.

Becoming aware, right? Since awareness is easily killed by drugs, brain damage and various ailments, I don't think awareness would survive physical death. What would be aware of (or through) that soul, then? Or is that soul itself becoming aware, like a child born from your mind?
That would be like another God-myth, where Athena leaped from Zeus's head, fully grown and armed. ;-)

But on a more personal note: What was the moment, if there was a moment, that you stopped believing in God? (My God or any other for that matter)

I've never believed in any God. In more detail, you can find it in another thread on this board:
https://truth-saves.forumotion.com/your-religious-views-f6/why-i-m-an-outspoken-atheist-t4.htm

I think we will too.

now don't get me wrong. I do believe in the virgin birth, heaven/hell, rapture, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, 10 commandments. I just know that our God is big and that now all of his ways can be explained. And I agree with you on some bad things that are linked with Chirstanity. God hasn't called us to be "Christians" in the religion senes. He had called us into a relationship with him. People do stupid stuff in "God's name" and they make God look bad. People ruined this, not God.

I think I link the way I feel about nature with the way I feel about art. Every great piece of art has a creator, why would something as beautiful as this planet not also have a creator?

I don't want to sound clique, but why aren't we still developing into monkies?

I don't mean paranormal. Haven't you ever got a feeling that something was going to happen only seconds before it did?

Our souls become aware of the awesomeness of God after we did. Our minds in the state that they are in can't handle all that he has and I think that we have to be apart from our logical thought process to see where he begins. If that makes sense to you.

Ok. I've spoken to a lot of people and I usually find more and more that it comes down to and instance. I have heard so many people say that their lives were crap and everything was going wrong and they resent a God who would let so many bad things happen, but how can people be made at something that they don't think exsits?

Sawatsky wrote:I just know that our God is big and that now all of his ways can be explained. And I agree with you on some bad things that are linked with Chirstanity. God hasn't called us to be "Christians" in the religion senes. He had called us into a relationship with him. People do stupid stuff in "God's name" and they make God look bad. People ruined this, not God.

That's what you're told in church. It doesn't make sense.

I think I link the way I feel about nature with the way I feel about art. Every great piece of art has a creator, why would something as beautiful as this planet not also have a creator?

Very many of the things that look beautiful to us, are actually good for us in an evolutionary sense. For the half-starved ape that we were some million years ago, flowers might have meant honey; music might have meant companionship with safety, food and fire. A beautiful mate would have meant offspring. If they had invented art that early, they probably would have depicted their most urgent desires, like artists still do - although not many of them are constantly hungry, cold and under threat from nature.
Our feelings are evolved, together will all the rest of us. That's why we find things beautiful.
By the way: The source of our feelings does not diminish those feelings themselves. Like you, I can be astounded, elated and moved by art and by nature alike. I just don't see why everything beautiful would have to be created.

I don't want to sound clique, but why aren't we still developing into monkies?

If you're really interested, you should read a book about evolution. I would suggest a book of Richard Dawkins, like "River out of Eden" or "The Blind Watchmaker". Evolution is not simple enough to explain in a few words - but believe me, the subject is fascinating.

I don't mean paranormal. Haven't you ever got a feeling that something was going to happen only seconds before it did?

What you describe is paranormal - and yes, I have had those feelings. I also many times have those feelings just before nothing happens.

Our souls become aware of the awesomeness of God after we did. Our minds in the state that they are in can't handle all that he has and I think that we have to be apart from our logical thought process to see where he begins. If that makes sense to you.

No, I'm sorry. It doesn't make sense to me.

Ok. I've spoken to a lot of people and I usually find more and more that it comes down to and instance. I have heard so many people say that their lives were crap and everything was going wrong and they resent a God who would let so many bad things happen, but how can people be made at something that they don't think exsits?

You're now speaking for those that have crappy lives and do believe in God. I do not believe in God, so I don't blame him for my crappy life or body. (Which aren't that crappy at all, by the way.)
Whatever "created" us, it went completely wrong on designing our eyes, knees, backs, teeth, some nerves, and the size of our babies. That's what you'd expect though, if you let a stupid evolutionary process have its way. (Those engineering errors are not my main problem though. I'm an engineer myself, and at most of what I do, I'm one hand short with my grand total of 2. I want to have an elephants trunk instead of my nose. I could have had, if evolution had done a proper job. Damn evolution!)

I don't follow what someone has told me. The things that I believe, I believe because it's how I feel. I think the reason that some of the things I say to you don't make any sense is because you don't know Him. It's like trying to explain love to someone who hasn't ever been in love before. When you get close to Him you feel embraced by something not of this world. And when you are wrapped in Him that's when you know it's not all hype. The feeling can't be replicated or fully explained even, but it's the most calming sense of peace. I don't believe in Him because I'm weak and I need something to keep my steady, I believe in Him because once you find Him you don't want to be apart from him.


I will look more into evolution. I have done some study myself and I do find some things that are very interesting, but I also believe that my God was behind it all.

I think the best way I can describe life without God is like life before electricity. People who lived during those days didn't hate their lives, but how much better is life with electricity?


hahahahahahahaha. If it were up to me, I would have wings. who needs legs?

Sorry guys, I have to jump in here - hope ya's don't mind. One thing annoyed me about the last comment.

Sawatsky... You say that you "don't follow what someone has told me. The things that you believe is because its how you feel". I can tell you with near certainty, that if you grew up in the middle-east it's extremely likely that you'd be worshipping Mohamed, if you grew up in parts of India you'd be a Hindu, If you grew up in Tibet you'd be a Buddhist, if you grew up in part's of Africa you'd be believing in ritualistic Gods. It is in no way accident that the God you believe in and worship, and associate meaning to is the Christian God, when you have grown up in the western world (which I presume you have). This point is brang up time and time again. We know why belief's are largely geographically located. Early childhood indoctrination, religious advertisements, the bombardment of Jesus this and Jesus that over a life time... All contributes.

You have obviously experienced feeling's that you can not explain. But guess what - that's all they are; feeling's that you cant currently explain! Jumping from that to giving credence to a supernatural being is a giant leap of unreasonable faith, and now leave's you with something even bigger that you can't explain - how is this helpful? Why people do this I will never understand. Feelings are feelings, they have no bare on what is true or what is not. You've gone straight from personal bafflement to a hasty invocation of the super natural without any steps in between.

I think the best way I can describe life without God is like life before electricity. People who lived during those days didn't hate their lives, but how much better is life with electricity?

I'm sorry to say but I personally find this type of thinking backward and unjust. I think it's when we grow up and stop believing in fairy tales and imaginary friends and embrace reality, which is when we truly start to appreciate the world we live in. Scientists and individuals that actually care about evidence supported truth are the only ones that spend the effort putting the hard yards in to bring forth knowledge, discover truths and progress our understanding of our place int he cosmos. The harsh but truth of the matter is, if it wasn't for those people, and we kept our reliance on a 'faith' based system instead - we'd still be bathing in filth, disease and worshipping a burning bush as 'awe inspiring', while still wondering what the stars are doing, not knowing what an eclipse is, no knowledge of germ theory, still asking why earth quake's occur, etc.

Sorry if I sound assertive, but dressing up and promoting belief in the complete absence of evidence is dangerous. My main point is, If you want to stay memorized in a fantasy world full of bronze age myths, that's fine - I don't have a problem with it. You may quite like this, and by the sounds of it you do. But until you can present proper evidence, none of us are going to take it seriously and be prepared for these belief's to be shot down. I also would expect anyone to do the same to me if ever I'm guilty of it.

Dougless Adam's put it right when he said, "I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day"

Hope I haven't offended you.

I may have grown up in the U.S. but I did not grow up in a "christian" home. My parents were drug dealers throughtout my childhood and a lived in violent neighborhoods. I didn't believe in God because he was the most readily avaliable diety at the time. I grew up in California so there is a lot of diversity. I don't want to sound mean at all, but you couldn't convience with all the science in the world that my God isn't real. You think I'm stupid for believeing in something that "someone has told me" when you believe in something that someone has told you too. Yes, there are things in science that are proved all the time, but there are also things in science that were once proved that we found out were wrong through other means. We think we know so much, but it's really about time that we realize that we don't hold all the keys to knowledge.

The reason my feelings are "backwards" to you is because you have never experienced them. How many times have you walked into a church service with an open mind? People think all christians are closed minded-home schooled-get thee behind me Satan-freaks. We're not all that way. Yeah, there are some weirdos, but there is every part of cultural belief, not just Christianity. You can say I'm foolish but one day we will find out together what this life is all about.

Also, look at the great minds of time. The deeper you get into science, the more you realize this wasn't a cosmic accident.

Sawatsky wrote:I may have grown up in the U.S. but I did not grow up in a "christian" home. My parents were drug dealers throughtout my childhood and a lived in violent neighborhoods. I didn't believe in God because he was the most readily avaliable diety at the time. I grew up in California so there is a lot of diversity.

But you grew up in California where 90-95% of the Places of Worship are indeed some form of Christianity. You probably believe in Yahweh as it was an easily available out for your situation in life not because you were raised such. I live in Albuquerque, I can't go 5 blocks without running into a church of some type saying they help people.

I don't want to sound mean at all, but you couldn't convience with all the science in the world that my God isn't real.

And that right there is the problem, You want us to convince you that god is not real. We won't. We want you to convince US that he is. And every time you try we will counter with scientific methods. In other words, Provide the evidence for you claim or be prepared to be laughed at and shown why your logic is in error.

You think I'm stupid for believing in something that "someone has told me" when you believe in something that someone has told you too.

Yes, but the people that tell me what to believe present testable and repeatable results. Religion has failed this repeatedly.

Yes, there are things in science that are proved all the time, but there are also things in science that were once proved that we found out were wrong through other means.

Yes. it is part of the scientific method. It has to have a way to be falsifiable. By this standard, theories like the aether in space and the world is flat have been proven wrong. And unlike religion, when science gets it wrong, they say so.

We think we know so much, but it's really about time that we realize that we don't hold all the keys to knowledge.

Science never says it has "all the keys" to knowledge, it has a method to which we can understand and gain more knowledge. Just because we can't understand it now doesn't mean we won't in the future. And is not reason to place a god there either. This is a God of the Gaps argument you are using and it held human progress back for a thousand years, which is known in history as The Dark Ages.

The reason my feelings are "backwards" to you is because you have never experienced them. How many times have you walked into a church service with an open mind?

I was 15 the last time I had an "open mind" for church. And everything the preacher said just countered society and science.

People think all christians are closed minded-home schooled-get thee behind me Satan-freaks. We're not all that way. Yeah, there are some weirdos, but there is every part of cultural belief, not just Christianity. You can say I'm foolish but one day we will find out together what this life is all about.

The purpose of purpose. YouTube Search that phrase...Richard Dawkins has a good video on that.

Also, look at the great minds of time. The deeper you get into science, the more you realize this wasn't a cosmic accident.

Which ones are we talking about? Stephen Hawking? Carl Sagan? Richard Dawkins? It is not an "accident" as you called it. It was just a random event that brought about what we have today. And don't go and say well it was a 1 in whatever obscure randomly high number that it must be god. No, the chance is 1:1. It happened. And it happened the only way it could have. Now it is up to us, Humans, to figure out how it did.

To quote Carl Sagan:

Carl Sagan wrote:We are a way for the cosmos to know itself.

Why must there be a god behind it? And why must it be Yahweh? Why not Horus or Odin or Kefka?

Akuma9 pretty much along the lines said everything I was going to.

And I want to reiterate something important. Our point of view, which is the scientific one, is that we are not 'claiming' that there definitely is no God. We are simply stating there isn't any evidence for it. It's not our job to do the disproving of such claims. It would be ludicrous to have to disprove every single claim someone makes up in the back of their mind. As for the Christian God, or any other God for that matter, to this date ...no evidence!

I think that's pretty much it for now. Perhaps any further questions or issue's should be raised in the correct forum.

I know that there a lot of places of Christian worship, but just because there are places doesn't mean that dedicated people attened them. I don't think you guys understand the what a real Christian is.

And of course church contradicts society. Just because we think something is acceptable doesn't make it acceptable.

Let's take Einstien. The deeper he got into science the more he thought that a divine creator was involed. I don't care if you don't think it was my God. What I'm trying to say is that something bigger than us created all of this. Look at the Golden ratio and tell me that is coinsidence. What if you tried to set out and prove that God does exist? Science was made to disprove God, what would happen if we turned the tables around?

Sawatsky wrote:Let's take Einstien. The deeper he got into science the more he thought that a divine creator was involed. I don't care if you don't think it was my God.

Let's have Einstein speak for himself:

Einstein wrote:It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

(Albert Einstein, in a letter March 24, 1954)

Sawatsky: You might ask yourself who told you the explicit lie that Einstein was believed in God. That person is not to be trusted.

What I'm trying to say is that something bigger than us created all of this. Look at the Golden ratio and tell me that is coinsidence.

Yes, we got that. You believe in God because you strongly feel that things can't be coincidence. There's no need to repeat that.

Science was made to disprove God, what would happen if we turned the tables around?

Science was made to investigate and describe nature, in the most accurate way possible. It's not science that disproves God; it's nature itself.

Now what tables would you like to have turned around? I'll happily accept the challenge to disprove the Christian/Jewish/Moslem God. Here I go:

- The earth clumped together over 4.000.000.000 years ago. It took another billion years (or so) before life became possible on its surface.
- Since the earth is not 6000 years old, and was not created in 6 days, there exists no creator that created it at such a time.
- Since no such creator exists, Yahweh doesn't exist.

Now you may wiggle all you want, trying to "interpret" the bible to fit the facts, but the simple fact is, that if any God exists, it's not Yahweh, since Yahweh has been disproven.

Neil's Post is made of WIN and PURE PWNAGE.