Killing In The New Testament

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Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:11 pm

I was just wondering if anyone knew of any verses in the New Testament authorizing killing? I know the Old Testament is just plagued with murder, genocide, rape, etc. I can't find any instructed killing in the New Testament though.... Can someone enlighten me? I'm arguing with a fundie (wasting time) and would like to checkmate him. K, thanks. =D sunny Basketball confused What a Face Twisted Evil Idea Embarassed Mad cheers

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Clint on Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:51 am

Hey, welcome to the forums :-)

Well the problem with Jesus is slightly different. It’s not so much that Jesus ran around smiting and killing in full unrighteousness, like the God of the Old Testament. It’s a combination of several other things.

Let's just assume Jesus Christ existed for argument's sake.

First of all he was the one who introduced the concept of a Hell, which is probably the sickest idea of all. Yes the God of the Old Testament spent all of his time killing and urging his people on through acts of genocide – but there was no punishment for the dead, until the ‘gentle’ Jesus came along and picked the slack up from where his father left off. To this day, this hell concept has been responsible for the mental abuse of countless children and adults alike. The idea that there’s a set of rules (immoral ones) that one must not break, and if you break these, no matter how trivial, nonsensical or absurd they may be; with ‘not loving him’ being the number one crime, you will be punished and tormented for eternity. it’s morally abominable.

Second of all, this whole notion that he sacrificed his life for our sins is ridiculous. There was no sacrifice! Jesus endured just a few hours of torture to ‘die’ and then got to be raised 3 days later to be a God. Many people throughout history have given up there life for a lot less, with no notion of reward or becoming a Lord of the universe after. Plus if he is God, what sacrifice is a mere human body anyhow? He could snap his fingers and create another one!

Third, time and time again Jesus clearly states that the old laws are not to change, and that he has come to uphold these laws. So all murder, slavery, childabuse and so forth should still apply.

The entire central doctrine of Jesus, is immoral. Take no thought for tomorrow - no care for your children, abandon your family, no investment or planning for the future. This is on top of other horrid messages such as cutting your eyes out or hands off if you’ve sinned. It’s ridiculous and an immoral proposition.

The point of this is to highlight that Jesus is not all glamour and love. There is quite an evil side to the New Testament that needs to be recognised by people.

I hope some of this helps...


Last edited by Clint on Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:57 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:52 am

Yeah, that does help quite a bit. The main arguement I'm having with this guy is if the old laws still apply. If Jesus, Matthew, and Luke all say they do, then that's all that's really needed to just paint the entire biblical series as evil. I'm going to go tell him that if he doesn't kill his daughter for "cursething" him, he's going to hell! =D Thanks for the reply!

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Akuma9 on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:37 am

Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:47 am

Akuma9 wrote:Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.
If rape was wrong, then the Holy Ghost would be guilty of raping Mary in her sleep. We can't allow the Holy Ghost to be guilty of a crime, so rape can not be wrong. tongue
Neither is stalking, since Jesus is the greatest stalker in history. "I love you, and if you don't love me back, I'll torment you for eternity".

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Akuma9 on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am

Niels wrote:
Akuma9 wrote:Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.
If rape was wrong, then the Holy Ghost would be guilty of raping Mary in her sleep. We can't allow the Holy Ghost to be guilty of a crime, so rape can not be wrong. tongue
Neither is stalking, since Jesus is the greatest stalker in history. "I love you, and if you don't love me back, I'll torment you for eternity".

Quite. But then again you should see my latest video where this guy is crying about how the Holy Spirit "touched" him after he was worshiping and singing to the fake dead guy Jesus.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:06 am

Akuma9 wrote:Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.
YES!!! Thank you! That's what I was looking for. I knew there was some sadist shit in the New Testament.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Sawatsky on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:49 pm

Dont_Vote_Palin wrote:Yeah, that does help quite a bit. The main arguement I'm having with this guy is if the old laws still apply. If Jesus, Matthew, and Luke all say they do, then that's all that's really needed to just paint the entire biblical series as evil. I'm going to go tell him that if he doesn't kill his daughter for "cursething" him, he's going to hell! =D Thanks for the reply!

The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ. People in the Bible weren't killed because they did one thing wrong and God killed them because of their action. That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok. When Romans 1:24-31 was written then people were killing each other. Each giving into there own sinful deisres.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:24 pm

Sawatsky wrote:The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ.
I've heard and read those words a hundred times - but what do they mean?

People in the Bible weren't killed because they did one thing wrong and God killed them because of their action. That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok.
Did you actually read the bible?

Just a few examples of how the Bible encourages murder:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

(From http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm , many more examples on that page)

Now, Sawatsky, perhaps you can explain how these laws are made "whole" by the death of Jesus?

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:57 pm

The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ. People in the Bible weren't killed because they did one thing wrong and God killed them because of their action. That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok. When Romans 1:24-31 was written then people were killing each other. Each giving into there own sinful deisres. [/quote]


What you just said is pretty much the opposite of what the Bible clearly asserts. The Old Testament is plagued with authorized and instructed murder. The New Testament also has it, I just forgot what verse. You're fishing for a cop-out. It seems as if you're trying to paint the Romans verse as a historical event of Atheists murdering eachother. Somehow I didn't get that interpretation. Then again, I'm not looking for ways to justify what the Bible asserts.


Last edited by Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Unclear conversation)

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:00 pm

Evilbible.com is a great website isn't it? Covers pretty much every disgusting detail of the Bible.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:31 pm

Dont_Vote_Palin wrote:Evilbible.com is a great website isn't it? Covers pretty much every disgusting detail of the Bible.
Yup!
The site used to have a pretty good forum too. It's a pity that it's gone.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Clint on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:23 am

Hi Sawatsky and welcome to the new Truth-Saves forums Surprised)

Alrighty,
The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ
There isn't just one old 'law', there's literally hundreds. But I'm not 100% sure what your trying to get at with the above statemet, maybe you can clarify for me? I know what people generally mean when they associate being made 'whole' from Christ's death, but I don't want to misinterpret you.

That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok.
...? The bible is the word of God yes? (if you don't think this, I'm not sure why you would take any of what's written in it seriously). But going on the assumption you do think it is; there are specific instructions that do make killing ok in many different circumstances, and the God of the bible is more than happy to have demonstrated it time and time again. More innocent people than you could comprehend died by unjust, unfair & immoral death sentances handed down directly from God. God's word is the ultimate word yes?

Though I'm not going to reiterate too much on this as I think Neils wrote down a couple of examples, with what I think should be fairly comprehendable. I mean, yes some passages in the bible are not completely clear and I can see how people can take a 'slight' different spin to it. But most are clearly written with unmistakable instructions that you'd really have to go out of your way to interpret incorrectly. In doing so, one is twisting reality to bend over backwards in an attempt to try and make something moral out of something which is clearly not. And that in itself is dishonest.

While trying to stay on topic, the passage below from Jesus that gives credence to the killing's of the Old Testament is one of the examples in which I'm referring to that is 'unmistakable'.
Matthew 5:17-20, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished..."
This is just one of many passages that state the same thing.

...By all means let me know if you still disagree or that I've mistaken your view point. Surprised)

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Sawatsky on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:47 pm

By being made whole I mean the old way of thinking was bridged. The sins that we commit in this life time must be attoned for. Just as commiting a crime would have to be attoned for. In the days of old law no sacrafice had been made for humanity. Death was the law in society, not just Christianity. When Christ died the sacrifice was made. It's the reason why we don't killed animals anymore. Jesus was the peace maker. The world has a lot of evil despite how much good may be in it and the things that we do in this life that are wrong must have some sort of attonement. Thinking that life is all for nothing, for lack of better words, seems like a waste to me. When Jesus was crucified the sins of the world died, all we have to do is accept the He is our saviour. When He rose from the dead a new way started. The gap that once seperated us from God was bridged and we became whole in Him. He accepted the punishment for the all things we would ever do. This made the way so that no one would have to parish, but have everlasting life.

Did I answer your question?

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:37 pm

@Sawatsky: I'm amazed at that last sermon of yours - if I may call it so. In many of your posts, you sound like reasonable and generally human. When you post such a sermon however, I can almost see your eyes going foggy, your voice changing into a toneless drone, while you recite something that would fit in a brainwash from a horror movie. "god-is-good-jesus-died-for-our-sins-you-just-have-to-accept-him..." Is that you writing those words?

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