Killing In The New Testament

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Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:11 pm

I was just wondering if anyone knew of any verses in the New Testament authorizing killing? I know the Old Testament is just plagued with murder, genocide, rape, etc. I can't find any instructed killing in the New Testament though.... Can someone enlighten me? I'm arguing with a fundie (wasting time) and would like to checkmate him. K, thanks. =D sunny Basketball confused What a Face Twisted Evil Idea Embarassed Mad cheers

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Clint on Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:51 am

Hey, welcome to the forums :-)

Well the problem with Jesus is slightly different. It’s not so much that Jesus ran around smiting and killing in full unrighteousness, like the God of the Old Testament. It’s a combination of several other things.

Let's just assume Jesus Christ existed for argument's sake.

First of all he was the one who introduced the concept of a Hell, which is probably the sickest idea of all. Yes the God of the Old Testament spent all of his time killing and urging his people on through acts of genocide – but there was no punishment for the dead, until the ‘gentle’ Jesus came along and picked the slack up from where his father left off. To this day, this hell concept has been responsible for the mental abuse of countless children and adults alike. The idea that there’s a set of rules (immoral ones) that one must not break, and if you break these, no matter how trivial, nonsensical or absurd they may be; with ‘not loving him’ being the number one crime, you will be punished and tormented for eternity. it’s morally abominable.

Second of all, this whole notion that he sacrificed his life for our sins is ridiculous. There was no sacrifice! Jesus endured just a few hours of torture to ‘die’ and then got to be raised 3 days later to be a God. Many people throughout history have given up there life for a lot less, with no notion of reward or becoming a Lord of the universe after. Plus if he is God, what sacrifice is a mere human body anyhow? He could snap his fingers and create another one!

Third, time and time again Jesus clearly states that the old laws are not to change, and that he has come to uphold these laws. So all murder, slavery, childabuse and so forth should still apply.

The entire central doctrine of Jesus, is immoral. Take no thought for tomorrow - no care for your children, abandon your family, no investment or planning for the future. This is on top of other horrid messages such as cutting your eyes out or hands off if you’ve sinned. It’s ridiculous and an immoral proposition.

The point of this is to highlight that Jesus is not all glamour and love. There is quite an evil side to the New Testament that needs to be recognised by people.

I hope some of this helps...


Last edited by Clint on Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:57 am; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:52 am

Yeah, that does help quite a bit. The main arguement I'm having with this guy is if the old laws still apply. If Jesus, Matthew, and Luke all say they do, then that's all that's really needed to just paint the entire biblical series as evil. I'm going to go tell him that if he doesn't kill his daughter for "cursething" him, he's going to hell! =D Thanks for the reply!

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Akuma9 on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:37 am

Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:47 am

Akuma9 wrote:Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.
If rape was wrong, then the Holy Ghost would be guilty of raping Mary in her sleep. We can't allow the Holy Ghost to be guilty of a crime, so rape can not be wrong. tongue
Neither is stalking, since Jesus is the greatest stalker in history. "I love you, and if you don't love me back, I'll torment you for eternity".

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Akuma9 on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 am

Niels wrote:
Akuma9 wrote:Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.
If rape was wrong, then the Holy Ghost would be guilty of raping Mary in her sleep. We can't allow the Holy Ghost to be guilty of a crime, so rape can not be wrong. tongue
Neither is stalking, since Jesus is the greatest stalker in history. "I love you, and if you don't love me back, I'll torment you for eternity".

Quite. But then again you should see my latest video where this guy is crying about how the Holy Spirit "touched" him after he was worshiping and singing to the fake dead guy Jesus.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:06 am

Akuma9 wrote:Death to certain people is also mentioned in Romans 1:24-31, including the death of Homosexuals, Murders, thieves, but not rapists.
YES!!! Thank you! That's what I was looking for. I knew there was some sadist shit in the New Testament.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Sawatsky on Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:49 pm

Dont_Vote_Palin wrote:Yeah, that does help quite a bit. The main arguement I'm having with this guy is if the old laws still apply. If Jesus, Matthew, and Luke all say they do, then that's all that's really needed to just paint the entire biblical series as evil. I'm going to go tell him that if he doesn't kill his daughter for "cursething" him, he's going to hell! =D Thanks for the reply!

The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ. People in the Bible weren't killed because they did one thing wrong and God killed them because of their action. That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok. When Romans 1:24-31 was written then people were killing each other. Each giving into there own sinful deisres.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:24 pm

Sawatsky wrote:The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ.
I've heard and read those words a hundred times - but what do they mean?

People in the Bible weren't killed because they did one thing wrong and God killed them because of their action. That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok.
Did you actually read the bible?

Just a few examples of how the Bible encourages murder:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

(From http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm , many more examples on that page)

Now, Sawatsky, perhaps you can explain how these laws are made "whole" by the death of Jesus?

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:57 pm

The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ. People in the Bible weren't killed because they did one thing wrong and God killed them because of their action. That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok. When Romans 1:24-31 was written then people were killing each other. Each giving into there own sinful deisres. [/quote]


What you just said is pretty much the opposite of what the Bible clearly asserts. The Old Testament is plagued with authorized and instructed murder. The New Testament also has it, I just forgot what verse. You're fishing for a cop-out. It seems as if you're trying to paint the Romans verse as a historical event of Atheists murdering eachother. Somehow I didn't get that interpretation. Then again, I'm not looking for ways to justify what the Bible asserts.


Last edited by Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Unclear conversation)

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:00 pm

Evilbible.com is a great website isn't it? Covers pretty much every disgusting detail of the Bible.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:31 pm

Dont_Vote_Palin wrote:Evilbible.com is a great website isn't it? Covers pretty much every disgusting detail of the Bible.
Yup!
The site used to have a pretty good forum too. It's a pity that it's gone.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Clint on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:23 am

Hi Sawatsky and welcome to the new Truth-Saves forums Surprised)

Alrighty,
The old law still doesn't stand as the only law, it was made whole by the death of Christ
There isn't just one old 'law', there's literally hundreds. But I'm not 100% sure what your trying to get at with the above statemet, maybe you can clarify for me? I know what people generally mean when they associate being made 'whole' from Christ's death, but I don't want to misinterpret you.

That's not how it works. The Bible doesn't make killing ok.
...? The bible is the word of God yes? (if you don't think this, I'm not sure why you would take any of what's written in it seriously). But going on the assumption you do think it is; there are specific instructions that do make killing ok in many different circumstances, and the God of the bible is more than happy to have demonstrated it time and time again. More innocent people than you could comprehend died by unjust, unfair & immoral death sentances handed down directly from God. God's word is the ultimate word yes?

Though I'm not going to reiterate too much on this as I think Neils wrote down a couple of examples, with what I think should be fairly comprehendable. I mean, yes some passages in the bible are not completely clear and I can see how people can take a 'slight' different spin to it. But most are clearly written with unmistakable instructions that you'd really have to go out of your way to interpret incorrectly. In doing so, one is twisting reality to bend over backwards in an attempt to try and make something moral out of something which is clearly not. And that in itself is dishonest.

While trying to stay on topic, the passage below from Jesus that gives credence to the killing's of the Old Testament is one of the examples in which I'm referring to that is 'unmistakable'.
Matthew 5:17-20, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished..."
This is just one of many passages that state the same thing.

...By all means let me know if you still disagree or that I've mistaken your view point. Surprised)

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Sawatsky on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:47 pm

By being made whole I mean the old way of thinking was bridged. The sins that we commit in this life time must be attoned for. Just as commiting a crime would have to be attoned for. In the days of old law no sacrafice had been made for humanity. Death was the law in society, not just Christianity. When Christ died the sacrifice was made. It's the reason why we don't killed animals anymore. Jesus was the peace maker. The world has a lot of evil despite how much good may be in it and the things that we do in this life that are wrong must have some sort of attonement. Thinking that life is all for nothing, for lack of better words, seems like a waste to me. When Jesus was crucified the sins of the world died, all we have to do is accept the He is our saviour. When He rose from the dead a new way started. The gap that once seperated us from God was bridged and we became whole in Him. He accepted the punishment for the all things we would ever do. This made the way so that no one would have to parish, but have everlasting life.

Did I answer your question?

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:37 pm

@Sawatsky: I'm amazed at that last sermon of yours - if I may call it so. In many of your posts, you sound like reasonable and generally human. When you post such a sermon however, I can almost see your eyes going foggy, your voice changing into a toneless drone, while you recite something that would fit in a brainwash from a horror movie. "god-is-good-jesus-died-for-our-sins-you-just-have-to-accept-him..." Is that you writing those words?

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Sawatsky on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:45 pm

haha. I don't mean to sound that way and I promise that I'm not. It's in these past few years that I have come to the realization of who God is and who Christ is and what all this means. I have always been the type of person who has questioned everything in life because I want to make sure that I'm making the right choice with my life. It wasn't until I tried to take my own life that I realized what all this meant. I was saved. I had turned to do all the things I wanted to do and it didnt matter what any preacher said because I didn't want to hear it. Then when I had turned from everything, God spoke. My life hasn't been the same. He wasn't a last resort or a lesser or two evils in my head, He was the only way for me. I guess sometimes faith doesn't need logic.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Akuma9 on Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:56 pm

Sawatsky wrote:haha. I don't mean to sound that way and I promise that I'm not. It's in these past few years that I have come to the realization of who God is and who Christ is and what all this means. I have always been the type of person who has questioned everything in life because I want to make sure that I'm making the right choice with my life. It wasn't until I tried to take my own life that I realized what all this meant. I was saved. I had turned to do all the things I wanted to do and it didnt matter what any preacher said because I didn't want to hear it. Then when I had turned from everything, God spoke. My life hasn't been the same. He wasn't a last resort or a lesser or two evils in my head, He was the only way for me. I guess sometimes faith doesn't need logic.

Your post is pure anecdotal, it cannot be tested nor repeated for accuracy.

Also, Jesus never existed. There is no historical evidence for Jesus. Only the Bible says Jesus existed. Not even the most prominent historians and political writers of the time mention him. You are striking out left and right.


For more info on this try this link:
WARNING: IT IS A LONG READ

http://rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:37 pm

Akuma9 wrote:
Your post is pure anecdotal, it cannot be tested nor repeated for accuracy.
Not repeated!? You must be joking: I've read this a thousand times!
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
I myself have seen God on an LSD-trip - but at least I realized I was hallucinating afterwards.

Mostly when people hear voices in their head, they are diagnosed with acute psychosis - unless they claim to voice to belong to God. In that case, they're diagnosed religious. The difference is not that clear.
@Sawatsky: I'm glad for you that God saved you from suicide - but I also hope you've found a good psychiatrist. Neither God nor a priest are a substitute for professional help, no matter how often they claim to be.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Clint on Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:24 pm

This quote I'm going to address as I think it's the most irrational out of all the irrational quote's from Sawatsky.
By being made whole I mean the old way of thinking was bridged. The sins that we commit in this life time must be attoned for. Just as commiting a crime would have to be attoned for. In the days of old law no sacrafice had been made for humanity. Death was the law in society, not just Christianity. When Christ died the sacrifice was made. It's the reason why we don't killed animals anymore. Jesus was the peace maker. The world has a lot of evil despite how much good may be in it and the things that we do in this life that are wrong must have some sort of attonement. Thinking that life is all for nothing, for lack of better words, seems like a waste to me. When Jesus was crucified the sins of the world died, all we have to do is accept the He is our saviour. When He rose from the dead a new way started. The gap that once seperated us from God was bridged and we became whole in Him. He accepted the punishment for the all things we would ever do. This made the way so that no one would have to parish, but have everlasting life.

1. There was no sacrifice. I've covered this already in this thread here. Please re-read.

2.
"It's the reason why we don't killed animals anymore."
Are you serious? Ever had a BBQ? Ever ordered a steak out at a restaurant? Eaten sausages, lamb chop, chicken nugget, meat pie? List goes on. Guess what - those animals were all sacrificed to feed your stomach. It make's no difference. Instead you've cherry picked the bible, changing from burnt offerings (though one can argue against this), to what I have previously said before. Now you simply preach the idea that there’s a set of rules (immoral ones) that one must not break, and if you break these, no matter how trivial, nonsensical or absurd they may be; with ‘not loving him’ being the number one crime, you will be punished and tormented for eternity. it’s morally abominable.

3.
"When Jesus was crucified the sins of the world died, all we have to do is accept the He is our saviour."
Well... no! There were sin's previous to the pointless & barbaric sacrifice, and has continue'd to be 'sins' after. Especially within the following 1,000 years by ...guess who? ...Christians! Also this quote ties into what I stated above, with God rewarding belief over deeds.


Last edited by Clint on Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Clint on Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:32 pm

Oh and I forgot...

4.
"He accepted the punishment for the all things we would ever do."
No, I'll take responsibility of my moral actions myself thanks. Yet this is just another sick metaphor Christians force on young children & the gullible. "Jesus was horridly tortured for something you haven't ever done yet ....don't you feel guilty?"

...Well, reality check! If you do happen to buy into this garbage. God was the one responsible for designing this entire scheme. He set all the parameters and put them into play. He created ALL of this, knowing full well in advance of everything that was to play out. Knowing full well Adam and Eve were going to sin just moments after he created them so he'd have to kick them out of the garden. Knowing full well in advance he'd destroy every innocent child, adult and animal in a world wide flood, and knowing full well he'd end up having to send himself/his son down to earth to put through a bloody sacrifice ...to himself, to act as a 'loop-hole' so he could keep the whole charade going ...Oh and apparently he's meant to be returning yet again to do it all over again.

He created his own creation with his own rules and parameters which involves him killing and smiting with righteous abandon. Then demands you to love him for it! ...This is not love, this is insanity. No sane person believe's this. The fact that religion can get people to call this love highlight's EXACTLY what's wrong with it. It twists you up to the point where you don't even know what's right and wrong.

You've once again demonstrated how much of a shit your God is.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:29 pm

Clint wrote:This quote I'm going to address as I think it's the most irrational out of all the irrational quote's from Sawatsky.

Who can guess who wrote these poetic words:
Does not a bullet, fired into serious work being given, is nothing else than God, and in some spirits believe in the survival, and
individuality and self- identification with the higher spirits to everything, there exist.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:55 pm

Sawatsky wrote:By being made whole I mean the old way of thinking was bridged. The sins that we commit in this life time must be attoned for. Just as commiting a crime would have to be attoned for. In the days of old law no sacrafice had been made for humanity. Death was the law in society, not just Christianity. When Christ died the sacrifice was made. It's the reason why we don't killed animals anymore. Jesus was the peace maker. The world has a lot of evil despite how much good may be in it and the things that we do in this life that are wrong must have some sort of attonement. Thinking that life is all for nothing, for lack of better words, seems like a waste to me. When Jesus was crucified the sins of the world died, all we have to do is accept the He is our saviour. When He rose from the dead a new way started. The gap that once seperated us from God was bridged and we became whole in Him. He accepted the punishment for the all things we would ever do. This made the way so that no one would have to parish, but have everlasting life.

Did I answer your question?

You realize that Christianity is one of the sole causes for killing in this world, right? Crusades, Spanish Inquistion, Witch Hunts, etc. Not to mention, everything you just regurgitated was from the Bible. A book that asserts we live on a geocentric planet. Do you really consider that a reliable source of information?

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:58 pm

Sawatsky wrote:haha. I don't mean to sound that way and I promise that I'm not. It's in these past few years that I have come to the realization of who God is and who Christ is and what all this means. I have always been the type of person who has questioned everything in life because I want to make sure that I'm making the right choice with my life. It wasn't until I tried to take my own life that I realized what all this meant. I was saved. I had turned to do all the things I wanted to do and it didnt matter what any preacher said because I didn't want to hear it. Then when I had turned from everything, God spoke. My life hasn't been the same. He wasn't a last resort or a lesser or two evils in my head, He was the only way for me. I guess sometimes faith doesn't need logic.

You got that right. Faith does not need, nor want logic. Which is why most rational people dismiss things that require faith, like the Bible.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Niels on Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:09 pm

Dont_Vote_Palin wrote:You realize that Christianity is one of the sole causes for killing in this world, right?
I'm not so sure about that: It might be that religion is just the main excuse for going to war, not the actual cause.

I've watched "meerkat manor" on discovery channel for a season. I was amazed at the ethics of meerkats: They have an uncanny resemble to old-testament ethics. Meerkats live in small family groups, with one female in charge. That female is the only one who is free to breed, and to kill all other offspring at her whim.
Families take care of each other (they babysit, groom and take turns watching for predators) but they are at constant war with neighboring families.
In the Old Testament it wouldn't be a woman in charge, but its laws and hard punishments are very similar.

Meerkats are just an example: There are countless social species that live by strict rules of war and friendship. If those animals don't need a God to justify their wars, then neither do we - I think.

I'm sure there's some wars that wouldn't have happened without religion. I'm quite sure that religion has never prevented a war. But I also think that many wars were fought over evolutionary reasons like food, space, fresh females and power. In those wars, religion was just an excuse.

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Re: Killing In The New Testament

Post  Dont_Vote_Palin on Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:41 pm

Niels wrote:
Dont_Vote_Palin wrote:You realize that Christianity is one of the sole causes for killing in this world, right?
I'm not so sure about that: It might be that religion is just the main excuse for going to war, not the actual cause.

I've watched "meerkat manor" on discovery channel for a season. I was amazed at the ethics of meerkats: They have an uncanny resemble to old-testament ethics. Meerkats live in small family groups, with one female in charge. That female is the only one who is free to breed, and to kill all other offspring at her whim.
Families take care of each other (they babysit, groom and take turns watching for predators) but they are at constant war with neighboring families.
In the Old Testament it wouldn't be a woman in charge, but its laws and hard punishments are very similar.

Meerkats are just an example: There are countless social species that live by strict rules of war and friendship. If those animals don't need a God to justify their wars, then neither do we - I think.

I'm sure there's some wars that wouldn't have happened without religion. I'm quite sure that religion has never prevented a war. But I also think that many wars were fought over evolutionary reasons like food, space, fresh females and power. In those wars, religion was just an excuse.

Religion may have not caused some wars, but it certaintly was used as the justification for some of the longest and bloodiest wars of all time. That's pretty much just semantics to me. You can't really say the Crusades would have happened if Christianity and Islam did not exist.

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