beginnings...

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Evolutions beginning.

Post  JagermeisterV on Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:37 pm

Blah Blah Blah where did everything come from? According to evolution everything came from something previous right. And yes natural selection makes sense and I believe in it but lets go farther down the evolution table.

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Re: beginnings...

Post  Niels on Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:52 pm

JagermeisterV wrote:Blah Blah Blah where did everything come from? According to evolution everything came from something previous right. And yes natural selection makes sense and I believe in it but lets go farther down the evolution table.
When can we expect an animation of whatever you're talking about?
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why

Post  JagermeisterV on Fri Apr 09, 2010 12:19 am

Why would i make and animation about a question. Ive done this same thing in college using different colored beans on colored carpet. the one that stand out get eaten faster. same deal. so anyone going to attempt at answering my previous question?

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RE: why

Post  Clint on Fri Apr 09, 2010 4:30 am

where did everything come from?
@JagermeisterV; Well, your question taken literally, has nothing to do with Evolution or Abiogenesis, but the creation and expansion of our universe. Here's a quick little YouTube video of universal beginnings at the quantum level. Alternatively you can watch Lawrence Krauss's A Universe from Nothing lecture - where he explains how our understanding of nothing in physics is no longer simply "nothing"; but we now know nothing as a boiling soup of quantum fluctuations where particles constantly pop in and out of existence. Once you have this, the laws of physics take over and cosmic evolution plays out.

...However I don't believe this is what you mean. Are you referring to Abiogenesis? or Evolution? Because they're completely different subjects. One's more chemistry related, and the other is biological. Can you clarify what your after? Thanks
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Re: beginnings...

Post  Niels on Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:57 am

Clint wrote:
...However I don't believe this is what you mean. Are you referring to Abiogenesis? or Evolution? Because they're completely different subjects.
If our new alcoholic friend is referring to any of those subjects, then his question is entirely off topic, which it can't be, since it would mean that Jagermeister-sponge is a very rude person, which he'll certainly deny being, so that can't be the case.

JagerMeister must be referring to the history of my animation, animations in general, computers in general or even the history of programming languages. I'm happy to expand on the history of my animation. I'm not an expert on the history of technology in general; I'm afraid I have to refer you to Wikipedia.

My animation is written in Haxe, which compiles for the virtual machine in Flash. Haxe is more or less based on JavaScript, which tries to follow the guidelines of ECMA-script.

Virtual machines are thought up by Sun Microsystems to support Java.

That should be enough information to start your own investigations, dear boozer. The history of computers is not as fascinating as the history of life, but still, it's interesting enough.
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no

Post  JagermeisterV on Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:55 am

No Im not talking about computers I think I could easily find that in History Books. Im talking about the very beginning, I dont know the term you would use for that. Like the Big bang theory, which I know probably isnt what you believe but you get my point. I started watching the Video and right at the beginning it says lets imagine some blob existed before everything. Thats what I am talking about, where did the blob come from. Or maybe its what you say particles popping in and out of existence. That doesnt even make sense. If you believe in science then science rules right. Science can explain everything right?

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Oh

Post  JagermeisterV on Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:56 am

Oh and Im a master hunter not an alchaholic. haha

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Re: beginnings...

Post  Clint on Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:48 am

I'll tackle from top to bottom.

Like the Big bang theory...
For starters, the Big Bang is a fact. Just like the Theory of Evolution, Germ theory, Gravity, etc, etc. Although in my opinion the name is slightly misleading, as bang tends to describe an "explosion", in which it wasn't. It was an "expansion" - there's a fundamental difference. More detail here.

...where did the blob come from. Or maybe its what you say particles popping in and out of existence. That doesn't even make sense.
Just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean its not a reality. Quantum theory doesn't make sense to me, but it's real & they have verifiable evidence to demonstrably prove this. In your own opinion, if you don't think there is enough evidence to support a specific theory, it's well within your right to dismiss it.

...Ok for you to get a proper picture of this what I'm talking about, you probably need to watch the Lawrence Krauss lecture. So ...the mass of any one thing is made up nearly entirely of what we commonly call "nothing" (the space in between everything else). All the physical matter of what ever it is your talking about, only makes up a small minority of it's total mass. This first was proved and illustrated (not discovered) when they successfully weighed the proton a few years ago. The actual proton's matter only makes up something like 10% of it's mass. You really need to watch the lecture, as I can't explain it in a single post (and I'm not a physicist). In short - the universe is expanding, and the reason it's expanding is because of the amount of energy that resides in between everything (galaxies and galaxy clusters). A.K.A. the energy that resides in "nothing". Without this energy, the universe wouldn't be expanding. On further investigation into this "nothingness", it turns out that there is no such thing as "nothing" any more in physics. When you have a vacuum, a void, or what ever else you want to call it. At the quantum level, it's a boiling soup of quantum particles coming in and out of existence. Yup - it blows my mind too, but it's currently the most accurately accepted model of the universe. Again, please watch the lecture to make sense of what I just said.

If you believe in science then science rules right. Science can explain everything right?
Nope, I don't think you'd get anyone rational person with this point of view. Science can't currently explain everything. Of course it can't! For starters, the universe is made up nearly entirely of particles that we know absolutely nothing about (roughly two thirds dark energy [what I talked about above] and nearly one third dark matter). The more knowledge we gain, we're discovering that we know less and less about more more. There may be some things out there that we may never know... There could be some things out there that may be impossible to discover ...we just don't know. And it's ok admitting that you don't know something, it's a noble thing to admit too, because its the truth.

...It's far better than inventing implausible and incoherent nonsense that isn't backed up by any evidence or reason, for an explanation.

You have to remember, science is the BEST tool ever devised to discover and unveil the truth and reality of the universe we live in. Science is a methodology of separating fact from fantasy. Science doesn't deal in absolutes, but due to scientific inquiry - some things we can be damn near as certain as possible about.
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Re: beginnings...

Post  Niels on Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:16 am

JagermeisterV wrote:No Im not talking about computers I think I could easily find that in History Books. Im talking about the very beginning
I'm very flattered that, while you would turn to books to read up on computers, you turn to us for knowledge on the history of the universe. I know we are great people, but I didn't think we would be viewed as messiahs and treated as such.

Clint is well up to the task, but you still might want to listen to a real messiah, like in the video's Clint has pointed out.
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Re: beginnings...

Post  SyntheticSylence on Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:27 pm

Clint wrote:You have to remember, science is the BEST tool ever devised to discover and unveil the truth and reality of the universe we live in.

Has anyone been able to prove that via the scientific method? Is it in some peer reviewed journal I can look at? I josh of course, sorry, couldn't resist!

But honestly, Quantum Physics is mind boggling. It's a fun thing to read about, but that's about it, I think. So much of it is in flux currently, you can't say much with any definitiveness. And what we are hearing is contrary to our own experience. Everything seems so stable, and consistent, and then in the quantum level it's blinkering out of existence, and space doesn't matter.

We don't know much, if anything, about the universe right before, and a few milliseconds during, the Big Bang. At least not with any decent amount of certainty. But we're learning more and more every year, and it's a very exciting field in science.

As for myself, I find this whole thing ironic. Back in ancient greece the learned believed that the universe was eternal. After all, if it wasn't where did it come from? Then the Christians appeared and said that the universe was created ex nihilio, or from nothing. They were, by the way, accused of being atheists. But then, again, science decides that the universe is eternal. Or, in other words, the Steady-State Theory. A minority accept the Big Bang, but this is accused of being a backdoor way of bringing God into science. Of course, MBR is discovered and Big Bang Theory wins.

So now we're in the curious point where we have Ray Comfort claiming that "something can't come out of nothing" and scientists, in effect, defending creation ex nihilio. Oh how things change!

In other words, don't expect to find an answer to your query JagermeisterV. We don't really know. We're getting closer, and there are a lot of really exciting quasi-answers, but there's no consensus. And even if there were, it'd probably be overturned in the next decade anyway.
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ight

Post  JagermeisterV on Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:48 am

That actually the answer I was thinking someone would say is that the universe is eternal. Another thing that is impossible to wrap your brain around. Becouse as one of you pointed out the nothing still contains particles. well then the nothing really isnt nothing anymore. So for all this to be true I take it that there always has to be something and that there never really was a true nothing. haha that sounds sweet. ok... umm so since I cant get a definate answer ill just forget it but I will watch the movie you pointed out. Also as you may know already I do believe in the Bible, every part of it and I think claims made against it in the science part of this website are wrong. It may appear that what is said about science in the bible is wrong like it being on pillars or so forth but everything in the bible can not be taken literally. A good example is revelation where such things as numbers all have a meaning behind them. I guess this would be a new discussion post shouldnt it? Ill do some reading and watching and get back.... Oh I wanted to sat one more thing I was once told that it takes just as much faith to believe in a God than to belive in evolution. He said the chances of all what you see happening are like this. A warehouse holds the pieces of a 747 within. everything is taken apart down to the nuts and bolts. A tornado comes through and passes and the 747 is built and ready to fly. Whats your take on that?

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Re: beginnings...

Post  Clint on Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:51 pm

By all means, do some reading and feel free to create a topic and discuss something about the site you disagree with! Hey - maybe with evidence or proper reasoning, you may convince us :-)

BTW - As for this whole 747 scenario that you've been told. That evolution comes about by "chance" and that it's equivalent to a storm rushing through a scrap yard and assembling a 747. ...It's propaganda! This has been refuted time and time again. Plus this claim is irrelevant to the theory of evolution, since evolution does not occur via assembly from individual parts, but via selective gradual modifications to existing structures. Order can and does result from such evolutionary processes.

JagermeisterV, who ever has told you this - either doesn't understand the first thing about evolution or is deliberately misleading you.

You can learn about Evolution here. I suggest maybe telling who ever told you about this 747 nonsense to also have a read.
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Re: beginnings...

Post  Niels on Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:25 pm

Jager wrote:yes natural selection makes sense and I believe in it
Yet later on Jager writes:

[quote="Jager"A warehouse holds the pieces of a 747 within. everything is taken apart down to the nuts and bolts. A tornado comes through and passes and the 747 is built and ready to fly.[/quote]

If you already "believe" in natural selection, then why bring up the 747-fallacy at all?

You might still ask "How could an eye form, since there is no use for half an eye?" Dawkins himself answered that in short "This is a no-brainer. 50% of an eye is 1% better than 49% of an eye."

I recovered his long answer on youtube. He was still a young man when he gave this lecture; even if you're sick of him by now, it's still worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUOpaFVgKPw

It's a bit out of context though: If you have time for the complete lecture, then this is the place to go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHoxZF3ZgTo
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Re: beginnings...

Post  JagermeisterV on Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:19 pm

What I meant by natural selection being true is that there are cases in nature where certain traits do better then other. Like a certain fish, cant think of the name, but in one pond it had predators so being brightly colored was not a good thing therefore the males with duller colors mated more and you have a bland fish. in the other without predators, well thats obvious. Isnt that natural selection? I guess I could be wrong Im an architect not a scientist. And the 747 is just the odds of that happening is compared to the odds of the evolution happening.

As for convincing you guys things on here are wrong. well theres a problem becouse to convince someone that facts in the bible are true they first have to believe the bible thats why arguing it is so difficult. but here goes my take on some stuff on here. http://truth-saves.com/Nature_vs_Bible.php RAIN the waters above the heavens are simply referring to clounds. Which do "open up" and cause it to rain.

Stationary Earth- This is actually totally symbolic. The pillars or being held is a symbol of power or stability. who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast... Basically God created it and now controls all that happens within it. Its a comfort to us "Christians" that this website groups together.

Moon- would you not say the moon provides light at night. Can I take this time to point out a misspelling "but it still does magically" u mean doesnt.

The Sky- As a curtain. Atmosphere is like a curtain. provides protection from radiation. Dont compare it to other cultures, they are there own culture.

Cows- Miracle- hard to fight for it.

Snails- I was confused so I looked this one up. And it was taken out of context. the verse before- "Let them melt away as waters which run continually" like a body of water with a river flowing out of it but yet doesnt go away. thats like a snail. leaves a trail but doesnt dissappear.

You might still ask "How could an eye form, since there is no use for half an eye?" Dawkins himself answered that in short "This is a no-brainer. 50% of an eye is 1% better than 49% of an eye." Why did the 1% eye form when no need of it was needed.

I find it hard to find lots of evidence Im a bit lazy so I just use my own facts that I know. Sorry its a lame excuse I know. But at least people are kinda talking on this site again. even though it is just a few.

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Re: beginnings...

Post  Clint on Thu May 20, 2010 6:36 am

Sorry for the v. late reply. I been busy up to the neck with multiple other stuff recently.

I guess I'll start out by saying that the747 argument is used to describe how a single biological individual coming into existence in it's present state is just about impossible by chance. So impossible that it's ridiculous contemplating. Every single biologist agree's too. But thinking that is how evolution works is a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution. It's not even remotely how evolution happens. Evolution does not rely on chance at all and occurs over billions and billions of years by slow gradual and incremental genetic transformations. learn more about natural selection here. And if it's mutations your concerned about being very rare - "More generally, the mutation rate in eukaryotes is in generally 10^-4 to 10^-6 ('^' = to the power of) mutations per base pair per generation" (Basically a cell with a nucleus is a eukaryote.) ...that is an extraordinary amount of mutations occurring in every single generation of DNA replication. Of course, each life form varies slightly.
JagermeisterV wrote:
well theres a problem becouse to convince someone that facts in the bible are true they first have to believe the bible thats why arguing it is so difficult.
Yeah I have a big problem of that. Unless you have a valid reason for believing in something - why do you believe it? Simply desiring something isn't a rational justification for believing in something. e.g. I really really want to believe that magic elf's come and fill my fridge up with food everynight, ready for me the next day. it's a big desire of mine! But is that a rational justification for me to believe that it actually happens? ...no! "in order to believe in something, you first must believe in something" - fundamentally flawed.

Your references to Rain above and below earth and stationary earth you state are only symbolic in the bible? Really? It wasn't for thousands of years until science uncovered the reality of what really happens - and then all of a sudden it becomes "only symbolic". That especially applies to stationary earth. Your cherry picking the bible for what you consider symbolic and for what's not. Same deal with diseases - When people became ill, the cause was was punishment for evil or it was the devil, until science discovers germ theory and shines light on the reality of the situation: bacteria and viruses cause illness. Then the biblical verse suddenly becomes "only symbolic".

Same deal as when you justify the sky as a curtain as "Atmosphere is like a curtain". It's nothing like a curtain. Our atmosphere just 'looks' like a curtain from one single perspective, but in reality it's nothing like that. As you ascent gradually upwards you can see the gradual change and decline of the amount of atoms per cubic centimetre. A description of a "curtain" was made, due to the ignorance of the people at the time. God didn't describe it that way, people who invented God described it that way.

You say "Why did the 1% eye form when no need of it was needed". Why wasn't the 1% needed? If you had 1% of an eye - that's a dramatic advantage to having 0% of an eye. In the fight or flight world, those prey needing to escape would have a much better chance of surviving if they could detect a predators shadow or not. It's a beautiful example of natural selection.

The reality of the situation is that the bible makes lots of claims. It might of been the best answers they had at the time, but it was pure speculation. We as a species are growing up and becoming more educated and knowledgeable about the cosmos. We've developed tools and methodologies to uncover raw data and find out how things really work! We discovered a long time a go now that these ancient attempts of explaining the world we live in are just that - ancient attempts at explaining the world we live in. They're fundamentally flawed, and simply ...wrong.

The bible wasn't written or inspired by a being that created the entire universe. It was created by man. And you can see this blatantly evident all throughout the bible. The primitive understandings of biology, little to no understanding of cosmology, full of threats and backward thinking.
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